Just to capture what I’m thinking about these days:
Where are my children’s best teachers?
Is school necessarily a place?
Are tests the best way to measure learning?
What value does paper have?
Can games be effective teachers?
Can virtual face to face be as good as physical face to face?
Is having access more important than having a classroom?
What do my children need to “know”?
What do my children need to be able to do?
What is literacy?
What does it mean to be “educated”?
You?
I have often said that learning is what my kids do when they are out of school. As such I think that a physical space for learning is no more necessary than a teacher in many instances.
Perhaps a better question than “What do my children need to ‘know’?” right now is “What does my school teach my child that is a waste of time?” In other words, what barriers are schools creating to relevant learning?
You and I both have kids in public school and I am willing to bet that they are all being taught things they will never need to know except later in school. This takes place from pre-k through post-graduate school and it frustrates me.
At this point I have a daughter in kindergarten, in third grade, in eleventh grade, and my eldest is a college junior. They all face the same types of barriers at school that are not there anywhere else. It is the artificialness of learning at schools that is the problem.
What is your school teaching that you think is a waste of time?
Where do I start? How about the same grammar lessons that they have had since 3rd grade, required keyboarding classes they already had in junior high, composition classes that are all form over substance. Even some of the classes that I would consider bordering on uselessness for most students could go either way depending on how they are taught.
It would be easier to focus on the small amount of curriculum the schools get right today.
Sounds to me like you have a beef with your child’s school and making a profound leap to say every school’s curriculum is useless.
Actually, I “have a beef” with every school that conducts business as usual. From elementary to post-graduate schools require students to learn material that is only good to prop up the structure of the next level. Do you honestly think that we should still be requiring our college students to be studying parts of speech?
That question raises so many others. How does one get to college without knowing them? Is it important to know them or just be able to use them properly? If a student doesn’t use them properly, shouldn’t someone teach him or her the proper use? Is it the responsibility of the school or the student’s responsibility at that level? How does one earn a college degree without a good command of the English language?
And I do think that learning is cumulative – it absolutely props up the next level. Few of us can jump into Calculus without the requisite Math classes. Background knowledge is sort of key.
I agree, but who needs to do calculus? Why do we teach so much “because they need it for high school/college/next year”? If you need advanced math, science, or grammar for the career area you wish to pursue, great. If you don’t, why do we require it?
In my opinion, much of the college/university system is built on keeping college professors in business. Wouldn’t it be much better to spend four years for a college degree working toward your specific area, or better yet spending two years in that area (which is what we are doing now?).
There used to be two year teacher colleges, maybe we need to revisit that model. It’s not like we are getting paid for the equivalent of a four year degree anyway 😉
We all should learn Calculus! It’s a marvelous exercise for the brain and teaches one logic and perseverance and problem solving. We require this “liberal” education because that’s what being educated is all about. It means being able to recognize and appreciate good art,music,and literature; knowing how to plow through the thorny thicket of problem solving when at first you don’t succeed; and it’s understanding why, at this time of the year, there’s a heavy mist hanging over mountain rivers in the early morning. If we encouraged kids to focus only on their area of interest we’d produce a generation of dullards!
A liberal education requires you to take other people’s idea of “important” classes. Who decides what is important to me?
Perhaps you should rethink the need for classes like calculus for all. Other than a mental exercise I have no need for it. Surprising as it may seem, this conversation is much better mental exercise than working with math problems ever will be because I am interested in it and it is actually relevant to my life.
Being able to describe the world is a good thing, but can it not just as easily be looked up or googled? What makes one scientific fact important enough to learn in school and one not important enough?
Are you implying that those without a college education cannot appreciate “good” art, music, or literature? I do believe your prejudice is showing. 🙂
Ahhhh yes, Let’s all just learn one skill and one skill only and do that for the rest of our lives. Seriously? How many people out there went to college and are NOT in their field of study??? Gee, that number won’t fit on my fingers that’s for sure! It’s called Broaden Your Horizons and learn everything you can!! Give yourself limitless opportunities! That way when the business world comes crashing down on your head and leaves you jobless you can still go out and provide for your family.
A college degree doesn’t give you limitless opportunities, the ability to continue learning does. While that is not mutually exclusive of a college education, there is not guarantee having said education will make you a life-long learner.
We’ve probably worn out this conversation, but I did spend all weekend thinking about my prejudices. It was a difficult but revelatory inner conversation. I’m not sure I’ll change my way of thinking but I’m hopeful I will at least get off my high horse occasionally.
I work in a public high school and feel we do a wonderful job at being relevant and I was more than miffed when you suggested public education creates barriers to real learning. I do worry that we don’t do enough for students who aren’t interested in college but I feel that too often my students aren’t interested because they don’t think it’s an option for them…either because they are illegal, poor, or have not been “groomed” to believe it’s a natural next step. And, of course, that’s my prejudice showing. But I struggle to keep so many of them in high school and I love it when I can get one or two of those to go to college. It opens up a whole world to them that they don’t know exists. I think our ideas about education are probably aligned but I like to think I’m helping kids recognize they have myriad choices. They just better go to college! 🙂
I have enjoyed the conversation as well. Something that has resonated with me for a month is the needless repetition students face with so many subjects. My wife just went back to college and she is having to do things in her classes that I know have no benefit for her outside of college. It is pretty frustrating.
I too struggle with the idea that college isn’t for everyone, yet it is still the best way for my students to escape the poverty they live in.
I do believe that a reassessment of curriculum as well as a wider opportunity for of more non-traditional studies is in order. Imagine how much more interested our students would be in going to college if it didn’t start out with two years of paid high school classes.
While a school education ought not to be artificial, it also ought not to be about utility, at least not exclusively. Sure, one purpose of education is to prepare children for the future, to provide them the skills that will enable them not only to have successful careers but also to adjust in the face of an evolving world that undoubtedly is creating, and will continue to create, careers currently undreamed of. However, a large part of education also ought to be catered toward helping students discover themselves and achieve their best selves. That education ought not to be concerned exclusively with ends but must pay equal attention to its means, i.e., helping students discover and “lead out” their best selves, seems to me unquestionable. How technology can best function as an exemplar (or conduit for exemplars) still seems to me fuzzy…
I think that a lot of the best teachers are not in the schools yet. But they will …
I want my children to “know” about knowing. What do they have to remember vs. what they are confident they can do and figure out.
Wow…these are all things that I have also been thinking about.
I think all parents and educators need to be thinking about these questions.
Not sure you’ve heard of this book (likely you have) but I’m just about finished reading “Shop Class as Soulcraft”. An interesting perspective in the age of “everyone goes to college” thinking and the “knowledge economy”. I’ve lots more questions after reading this one.
Virtual face to face is never as good as physical face to face because the communication is mediated; there is always a third party present. There is always the possibility of the communication being tampered with. It may be very remote, but it can happen. And this filters the thought process. I know I can’t just say anything. My ISP, my government, foreign government, the hacker kid across the street could listen if they so chose. I need to be less open.
I’ve always maintained that school is more than a place: it’s a state of mind. Some of the most brilliant minds humanity has produced were horrible “scholars.” But as long as we measure learning in units of seat time, passivity ends up being the default.
I also think about the value of paper. As a visual and kinesthetic learner, it is one of the tools I can use to make sense of problems. But I’ve adapted to do just as well with a whiteboard, or a digital calendar, or a wiki as I do with scratch paper, post-its, and books. These are good questions, all…
Learning on the computer can really help someone who doesn’t want to necessarily be around others. When it comes to some subjects in school you do have to be face to face like with the subject of art, you have to be face to face with the teacher in order to get the real feeling of how to do certain movements with a pencil or brush. Most kids feel like they don’t have to learn certain things since they already know what they want to do when they grow older… but how can they be so sure that their dream will come true that’s why we have to learn all this stuff because you never know you might just need it in the future if you don’t get the job you always wanted.Personally I think the classroom should be were ever the child is, were they feel comfortable enough to fully give their attention to their teachers.
Agree! Learn anywhere, in any way and everything!
These questions are very good because sometimes I think about asking those questions:Do people think about paper? They just throw it in the garbage which means your’re wasting trees. I don’t think learning is a waste of time,I think learning is awsome becaues you learn new things every day even though you know how to do some of the things but you just learn a different way.Personally I think students shouldn’t be home schooled just because they learn better in the classroom by their selves but I think they should learn the same way we do.
To answer the the question what is it mean to be educated, I think it means to get knowledge and using that knowledge for the the rest of your life and the only way to get knowledge in this time and age is going to government built buildings filled with under paid people to give lectures and make intelligent youth take notes on information they will not use in their lifetime and will definitely forget.That is school alright, it gives a lot of useless information that many people won`t bring to their death beds. People might say different but, if a teacher teaches something for a while and their A students won`t use that information in twenty years then that teacher wasted a month of the student’s valuable time.
14 year old student
So you’re saying I can’t walk outside and go to the park and learn things about Nature? Hmmmm, that’s interesting.
School is necessarily more than a place because it is an environment to learn new things and good things, but not many students know that. You need to wake up and face the real life. Education is pretty important now. It helps for your future, to get a job, and makes ends meet. Being educated means the people who were getting a good education.
Being educated = Having KNOWLEDGE!
Hi there. I’m a student in the Alameda district and a lot of the things you said made me think. It was great how you formed important questions and made it flow rather then just typing your thoughts out. Making them into questions makes the reader think more in depth about the topic you’re writing about.
I would say that school is a necessary place, because school is a place where people come to learn. Also tests are very good ways to see if your child is doing well in classes.
A 10th grade student
Wouldn’t classwork show just as well as how a student is doing in the class. Why is it that only a test can show that information?
Why are many many teachers at my school a waste of time?
Here’s a possibility for you to consider:
“The Huffington Post will be launching an education section on October 4 and we’re looking for bloggers to share their opinions and thoughts about relevant topics in education reform. The goal of this new section is to increase the volume of voices from those concerned about our country’s education system and create a national discussion.
If you are passionate about Education, highlighting different viewpoints surrounding reform to highlighting what makes a great teacher, we invite you to blog about it for the education section. We will be welcoming blogger submissions in the upcoming months as the education section continues to take shape.
If you would like to be a contributing blogger for Huffington Post Education, please contact us at education@huffingtonpost.com.”
Sometimes it’s not only the what you’re learning but the process of learning that is beneficial!
It means to learn the civilized and colonized way of learning, I’m from a isolated world in Canada’s Nunavut territory. I learn the old fashioned way, books, texts, pencils, erasures, tuck your shirt in, hands up, Ph. Ed, math, and detention. When the computer world came, it reduced the world of mobility.
But for me, to be educated means get your grades, graduate and get a job to make money.
Are tests the best way to measure learning?
I don’t value the kind of learning that can be measured by test. I like messy, interconnected, slow learning that take lifetime to measure.
I am from a small community and gone through a strict school when I was a child, used to be very scary. I now have a child of my own so I often wonder if she is actually getting the education she needs and whether she will be able to complete her schooling. There are some teachers who are great and some who aren’t really teaching to her benefit.